🎓 Dr. Freemo 🇳🇱 @freemo@social.cleverlibre.org

@ABScientist @gemelliz @myeyesaredim @Pinchy63

> For (4). There are anti-fogging sprays.

Tried them many times. They dont work, when they do they only work for a short time. Plus over time they ruin your lenses so that 500$ on lenses you spent on your glasses get ruined after a short time.

That said if you have glass lenses these probably work way better. But on plastic not so much.

> The levels of additional CO2 in the mask you also get by being in a way too crowded indoor space with poor ventilation (and everyone is fine with that).

In a crowded indoor space with no mask on and no windows open such as an office place you will see at most a peak in rare circumstances of 1400 ppm. Compare this to a crowded office space with just a few windows open but no active ventilation which will have closer to 700 ppm,

Mask wearers on the other hand see CO2 levels of about 2500 ppm while resperator wearers can see ppm levels as high as 4000 ppm.

For comparison the OSHA **short** term limit on CO2 exposure is 1000 ppm. So even short term use of masks exceeds the minimal threshold, but resperators are getting you well over the minimum level by 4x.

> (3) I have no one in my life who is lip reading, so that is not an argument for me.

That is horrific logic... first off they dont have to be in your life for them to be effected. You interact with people every day and you wont know which are deaf and which arent from a brief interaction.

> In the beginning of the pandemic touching the outside of the mask was a concern, because there was still a belief that Covid transmits through fomites. Now it is clear that it mostly airborne.

The issue with improper use of a mask and thus spreading the virus more is not about fomites. You have an active ideal moist breeding ground in a mask that isnt just perfect for keeping COVID alive but also all sorts of other diseases that can be just as bad or even worse. When you use the same mask for more than the recommended few hours (same for resperators) you may be putting yourself and others at risk by literally having a covid and bacterial soup sitting on your mouth that you are ejecting into the air every time you breath. Most studies only look at proper use of masks, which doesnt represent the bulk of how masks are used.

> There were also arguments that people may not keep their 6ft distance because of the masks. Now we know that even touching is not an issue, as long as you do not breathe in each other's air.

The closer you are the easier it is to breath on someone. This becomes compounded if your wearing a mask instead of a resperator which is known to be far less good at creating seals.

@Pandamoanimum Sadly Tahir never made much progress with your problem it seems.

@ABScientist

Well you didnt suggest quarintine or lockdowns so I assume people are still out and about. Your average person spends at least 8 hours a day around people.

If you are suggesting we dont just wear masks the rest of our lives but also minimize human contact as well this is looking like worse and worse advise I'd strongly be against. We are better off dealing with the disease than locking ourselves away forever.

@gemelliz @myeyesaredim @Pinchy63

Who the hell would buy a disposable toothbrush made of gold! I mean of all the ways to waste money...

https://aurezzi.com/en-us/products/toothbrush

@ABScientist

Yes at those numbers its more statistically possible

@gemelliz @myeyesaredim @Pinchy63

@ABScientist

> ...will likely disable me if I simply ignore it.

Well for starters it isnt "likely" to disable you.. the odds are against that. There is about a 1 in 4 chance that over a **lifetime** of getting covid infections you will wind up with some sort of long-term damage.... thats 25% over a lifetime. And this is from very weak new studies coming out, so its far from being fact at this point, it is at best a possible truth that needs more investigation.

So while that number is still high enough to be concerning, lets be clear, it is not "likely" at all you will get disabled,.

Also while there may be a 25% chance of some sort of permanent injury over a lifetime, that doesn't mean its an injury that will be significant either, or even notice. very much. Of course it might be much more significant too.. But lets be clear it could very well be quite insignificant just as it might be quite harmful...

> I agree that no mask is preferred to wearing a mask.
>
> But there is virus everywhere. A virus that disables people at an alarming rate.

A mask, specifically a resperator if you really want it to be effective. Is this huge bulky thing with stagnant ugly air you breath and straps around your head and is uncomfortable... something you plan to do for 8+ hours a day for an entire lifetime

> I would also rather not take a vaccine, but there is a disabling virus everywhere.

Sure but that is a one time stab.. its 30 minutes out of your life, and lasts a long time.. The trade is a far better deal. You get better protection for a mask, the protection lasts a long time, and instead of being inconvenienced for 8+ hours a day for the rest of your life you are inconvenienced for 30 minutes for a life time of benefits.

These two risk reward equations arent really comparable to me at all.

@gemelliz @myeyesaredim @Pinchy63

@ABScientist @gemelliz @myeyesaredim @Pinchy63

> We are almost four years into this pandemic. Why haven't better masks been developed? Masks that do not fog up? Masks that are more comfortable? Masks that can be reused? Masks that you can see through?

There were quite a few innovations in masks, including clear ones.. The thing is, people stopped using masks because they dont want something covering their face. I dont think you can take away the fact that im going to have something uncomfortable covering me. Im also not sure if you understand just how uncomfortable it is for many people to wear one.

Even if you added in all those special features I doubt people would be any more willing to wear masks for the rest of their lives.

> Repeated infection with Covid will lead to disability at some point (and it will likely be within 5 years for most).

Thats debatable.In all liklihood the risk of long-term injury is less for every subsequent case such that while your overall chance of a disability is going up slightly it is effectively acting logarithmic. So the risk isnt as high as it might seem.

Obviously the data is scarce so I am mostly speculating here based off the limited data.

To give you an idea I've been verified as having covid 7 times now and have yet to have any serious complications. If you were to believe some of the numbers people are throwing around that would be statistically impossible :)

@ABScientist

I certainly agree with you that the virus is concerning and we need to try to address it.

Better vaccines are desperately required for sure. Good habits like washing your hands, encouraging stores to have better ventilation, all good ideas.

Masks are a bit of a mixed bag though... so many concerns with masks:

1) Mishandling by the general public may cause an increase in spreading of the disease rather than the intended effect of attenuating it (no evidence for this either way but its a reasonable concern given the mishandling of masks that is common)

2) They are extremely uncomfortable for many people physically. That alone strongly discourages many from using it.

3) They are very harmful to the deaf community who rely strongly on lip reading to function. Since the deaf often need to hear people who arent directly talking to them it isnt easily solved by simply asking people to take down this mask. Clear masks are rarely used and fog so much as to be in effective

4) Many who wear glasses their glasses can fog, sometimes unexpectidly if there is a semi ok seal.. This can be dangerous at worse.

5) Studies have already shown (and it is easily confirmed) that CO2 levels inside a mask exceed the OSHA acceptable long-term CO2 exposure limits... While they are ok for short periods it is considered harmful to wear for most of the day constantly day in and day out

6) Just the psychological aspect. Its just not a healthy way to live for a virus that is going to be here forever. I know I have no interest in geating up in low-grade hazmat for the rest of my life and live in fear.

@gemelliz @myeyesaredim @Pinchy63

@ABScientist @gemelliz @myeyesaredim @Pinchy63

> So people are actively blocking this possible solution to the pandemic?

No, it isnt a solution to the pandemic, even if it is effective at reducing transmission.. for a few reasons.

You wear it virus wont go away. Yes if everyone is very careful to handle their masks and wear them with medical level precision then it will prevent the spread... but its not a solution because the second you take your masks off and go back to living life normally then the virus will be back and the spike will be much worse at first as it re-spreads (several reasons for this mostly specific to the nature of this virus).

So what you are really looking at isnt a solution, its a trade off... Would people rather have background levels of COVID forever, but be able to live a normal life. Or would you rather have relatively lower levels of COVID and much lower risk, but now have to live the rest of your life, and everyone elses, in low-grade hazmat where a resperator.

Most of us decided the risks of COVID are preferable to low-level hazmat gear for the rest of our lives. I still say that trade is one im happy to take.

> Some people must be making lots of money of keeping people getting infected and becoming disabled.

Yes, and they would make that money if we wore masks or not, because masks arent going to eliminate COVID anyway.. in fact if this were true the rich would be promoting masks right now.. it wont eliminate covid, but it will give them a new thing to sell. Then when people stop wearing masks again and covid re-spikes before normalizing all those extra sick people they can benefit off of too.

@ABScientist @gemelliz @myeyesaredim @Pinchy63

> Why hasn't this system gone into production? Or is it only available for the super rich?

Because the owner is corrupt and it looks like the mob is involved. I quit in protest recently and reported them to the Israel govt as part of my resignation.

Before I got there they werent able to solve the problem. They never got out of the 70's in terms of accuracy percentage.

When I was hired I got it into the 90%+ range and finally gave them a path to sell something. But thats when I discovered crooked shit financially, called them out on it and left the company. Now they are stuggling to pick up the pieces as they have no employees left and some criminal charges to answer for.

> The only reason why I need respirators is that people are spreading virus everywhere (while they could be wearing theirs and keep the virus to themselves).

I mean yea, no arguing that everyone else wearing a mask might mean you wont need yourself... but its not reasonable to expect everyone in the world to wear low-grade hazmat equipment to appease you, thats the problem... most of them would rather be comfortable and its not worth the trade.

@ABScientist @gemelliz @myeyesaredim @Pinchy63

You'd have to look on my resume. Not sure it has much of the detail in it but it should at least list my last two years running the science team at a COVID 19 research lab (Was in charge of the chemistry department, the clinical, and the Data scientists)

@ABScientist @gemelliz @myeyesaredim @Pinchy63

Yup, it sure would be... and luckily I dont even need to spend the time to reread it and write up a detailed analysis for you, because I already did that in my timeline quite some time back when I discussed this and a few other papers point by point... Feel free to search my TL for it, ill be happy to look for it if you cant find it and link it to you when i get back to my computer.

@ABScientist @gemelliz @myeyesaredim @Pinchy63

Not sure what a shitty "news" organization writing shitty articles telling people the exact shitty stuff they are already saying is proof of anything interesting other than the fact that the millionairs are just as shitty as everyone else, but I knew that already.

@ABScientist @gemelliz @myeyesaredim @Pinchy63

Read the article quite some time back and am familiar with it. I am a research scientist working on COVID-19 for more than 2 years now. Being at the core of a lot of these debates as well so you'd be hard pressed to find a relelvant study i havent seen before relating to the common sort of debate questions.

@ABScientist @gemelliz @myeyesaredim @Pinchy63

> Mask mandates may be less effective than masks themselves, because people get so much misinformation about masks not working, that they do not wear them consistently.

Sadly you get misinformation from both sides. Those who promote masks try and sell it as this wonderfully effected and trusted solution, when the reality is we have very little good evidence showing just how effective it is at all. There are valid arguments that when used by the general problic they could even make matters worse... Then you have guys on the otherwise who will swear up and down the evidence cocnlusively shows masks are useless... When the misinformation is constantly from **both** sides, that is the problem, more so than just misinformation out there. At least if one side was objectively honest about it then people could all go to that side and get informed. Instead thats not what we have.

> The only reason I can think of is that there are people with influence who think that if people wear masks, this will mean less income generated.

Nah, its likely people just realizing they dont want to live their life walking around in low-grade hazmat gear over a disease that posses real, but managable risk that is not going to go away. Most of us simply see the mask as hypochondria levels and not healthy in multiple ways and are done with it.

@ABScientist @gemelliz @myeyesaredim @Pinchy63

> So why do government still mandate seatbelts and helmet?

Same reason they do most of the things they do. For money. Car companies could now sell another accessory and make more money off of it. Since everyone has to do it you dont have to take the risk on the tech either.

> Clearly people do not like wearing them and do not see the point of them.

I am sure people see the point of them, but your right, clearly people do not like wearing them.

> Isn't this taking away freedom from people?

It sure is, I would agree with you it should be revoked as a law.

@ABScientist

> How did we get to a "you do you" approach for masks (while this also means that people are a danger to everyone around them), but we would never imagine this approach to helmets and seat belts (not wearing them mostly harms the person themselves)?

Huh, sure we do. I know countless people who dont wear seatbelts just cause they dont feel they can be bothered. Even more so with helmets, most people i know around the world wont wear them when biking in relatively safe conditions. Not saying they are making the right choice, but people trade comfort for less safety all the time, and are usually happy with their choice.

@gemelliz @myeyesaredim @Pinchy63

@ABScientist

I dont think anyone in this thread is even debating whether masks can be effective or not. So not sure the relevance to the thread here.

@gemelliz @myeyesaredim @Pinchy63

Unions are just Home Owners Associations for humans... yea I said it.

@lupyuen False. He was a mathematician; he didnt have a personal life.