🎓 Dr. Freemo 🇳🇱 @freemo@social.cleverlibre.org

@kravietz

I would issue a public apology for invading a country that wasnt mine and occupying it for 80 years and commiting genocide, war crimes and terrorism. I would also state that palestine has done the same and neither of us are right. I would then offer a complete withdrawl of Israel from the region, a dissolution of the state under the condition that 1) all hostages are returned 2) all israelis are allowed an appropriate amount of time to leave the country and 3) any israelis that decide to stay who were born on the land be granted citizenship in Palestine and an equal vote.

Once palestine agrees and the hostages released I would dissolve the state and leave.

Now in all reality neither me nor anyone has complete control to decide the situation. So in any practical sense that will never happen, nor am I expecting it to. But youa sked what I would do if i had control and that would be it.

@realcaseyrollins

@realcaseyrollins

At this point its not relevant that the Israelis are the worse... they both commit war crimes and terrorism... Debating what murderer and torturer is the nicer one has little interest to me.

But if you insist then yea, the one who started the fight,a nd did so with a mass genocide is very clearly the worse of the two, regardless of what the other side did after being occupied.

If i break into someones house and chain the whole family up in the bathroom and punch them in the face every day, and they respond by kicking me in the balls when they get the chance, I'm still the worse one, I cant be praised for "taking the high oad and not kicking them in the balls" when im the one who came in, took over their home, and locked them into a small bathroom. It doesnt make kicking me in the balls right, but it does clearly make me the wrong one as the theif and initial abuser.

@kravietz

@realcaseyrollins

Absolutely, as the invaders and occupiers the Israel side is significantly worse morally.

@kravietz

@admitsWrongIfProven huh? who said you need an answer now.. if anything the opposite, the fact that you presented it without having through through it is more the concern than not having an answer.

@admitsWrongIfProven

its not what "you do" its what all humans do and have to fight against... most people go in with their mind made up whether they know it or not... you and I are no different.

@kravietz

There is no excuse for this and no one should be praising hamas.

Just as there was no excuse when the IDF used children of a similar age as human shields and got called to international court on war crimes for it (And refused to show)..

In the end anyone taking **either** side as the good guy is morally corrupt. The hammas are evil, the IDF is evil, full stop.

@admitsWrongIfProven But you drew a conclusion despite admittidly having not given it much thought... I hope you see the problem in that.

But yes you should think it over and come to a clarity of thought on it and hopefully be willing to change your mind as you do (if it is warranted)

I always find it idiotic when people argue "Democrats are right wing by european standards"... lol there is no relative standard for center, it is an absolute... what they should say is "democrats are farther right compared to the average in europe". But to suggests they are right of center has little basis in reality. Their policies may not be as extreme left as politicians in europe, but they very clearly are left of neutral/center

@admitsWrongIfProven

Perhaps you cant think of one because your assertion was wrong? If we cant articulate a stance more often than not its because your stance was not founded on logic or reality.. in the case where its just an inability to express it,then its worth investing the time to try and come back when you can. Because if you cant explain it you should probably chance it.

@kmic

As the saying goes... be open-minded, but not so open-minded your brains fall out.

@admitsWrongIfProven Sounds like your associating the left with "It must be something good"... Nothign about left vs right has anything to do with dictatorship (thats up and down). So a left-wing dictatorship is still left wing, just like a right wing dictatorship is still right wing.

@admitsWrongIfProven Can you give an example where the result is wrong in asian countries? They would be considered old fashioned, and thus conservative, but in terms of practice many of them are really left wing countries as they are communistic with very significant social welfare programs and laws which prefer the "greater good" over indivdual rights (like making tattoos illegal in certain spaces).

So I'd argue they are legitimate extreme left wing in nature despite being old fashioned and in fact a great example of how my definition is more useful and applicable.

@admitsWrongIfProven

Could be some of that.

But super right wing being associated with a socialist party seems weird, though I agree it was very right in **many** ways it isnt really a great example of what the right is.

@arinbasu1 yup, no arguments there.

@admitsWrongIfProven I have a very different take.

While I know publicly the definition of left and right is largely "old fashioned vs new" I find in practice thatisnt too useful or even accurate. For me I define left vs right as values that focus on the individual rights above the rights of the group, and with the left caring more about the collective good even if that sacrafices individual freedom/rights.

We see this in almost all aspects, taxes (the left is more ont he side of evening out wealth and redistribution), immigration (caring more about the individuals here now than the collective good of those in need around the world), etc

@arinbasu1 Criticism for the sake of criticism I think I find fairly common on both sides of the spectrum, at least at the more extreme ends.

@arinbasu1 Thats kinda my point, if anything it appears to suggest a rather violently opposed mind to any sort of contradictory thought.

@admitsWrongIfProven Authority isnt right, thats up.... right is conservatism (prefering traditional values), not authoritarianism.