🎓 Dr. Freemo 🇳🇱 @freemo@social.cleverlibre.org

Happy Hobbit Day!

@freemo@qoto.org 😋

@freemo I think the term autism is too widely used and this is far from medical diagnose. if they'd seen real autists that are deep in their own world and may behave bizzarre if they get some stressing signal (that may be simply a sound or a touch) and go nuts like yelling loudly or throwing and crashing everything around. they usually have very low IQ level and basibally this is a disability that makes people incapable to live on their own, work and take care of themselves in most cases.

@icedquinn

Once a ginger said to me sarcastcally "Yea yea I know, gingers have no soul!"

To which I replied "That not true, they have lots of them!"

@lucifargundam

@icedquinn

Ther eis a linguistic subtlety that is hard to capture here...

We need to look at actions that are good because they **usually** have good effect and actions that are bad because they usually have bad effects. Not if one particular action in one particular case had the bad effect.

Let me give an example... shooting a gun in the air for no reason is a bad action.. its still a bad act even when it doesnt hit anyone. To say. So perfectly ok to say "You did something you shouldnt have done, you should be punished"

But cause and effect would be different... that would be like saying "This guy got shot in the head, and after investigating we found out it was because bill shot a gun in the air randomly.... therefore we would have given him 1 year in prison if it hadnt killed anyone, but now that it has there will be murder charges to it will be 20 years"...

The fact that two people taking the same action, with exactly the same motives will get drastically different punishments due to a happenstance, a roll of the dice... that seems like a very silly and counter productive way of operating.

Now take that idea and extract away from law and crime.. that same realization is valuable in life and our reasoning more generally.

@realcaseyrollins

@freemo Agree. We need to stop blaming, and start providing. Any "we cannot do that" arguments on economy are invalid. We clearly can, and we should. Blame game is something for those outside of the harrowing circle of providing for oneself.

@JonKramer

Which proves you completely dont understand how scales work.

It is the dimensionality of the number that matters. It just so happens you **must** use different types of scales to represent different dimensionalities. Thats a fundemental fact of numbers.

They are functional, practically and fundementally different. One is literally impossible to represent the idea, the other isnt.

I mean for example, which ideology do you place at 0 (the most left end of the scale)? Whatever ideology that is, how woudl you then represent a different ideology that is more left wing than whatever you attached at 0... you couldnt, because your on a bounded scale not an unbounded.

Moreover, where on your scale would you put a party or person that is neither left nor right, 50? I have 50 of what? Nothing? The inflection point itself is less of an issue, the bounding of the scale is.

@Free_Idealist @pyranose @georgetakei

@JonKramer

> Looking at your number line… you see the Dems, Obama, and Biden as closer to the socialists, Greens, etc. than to the GOP? Really??

Nope, lets use the analogy to show why.

I am just going to pick arbitrary numbers they dont represent where I think these parties fall on the left-right spectrum. They are just to illustrate a point:

Lets say, hypothecially, that communists were -10000, socialists -1000, green party -100... so all on the left... now if the democrats were -1, and the GOP were +1, then the democrats would be on the left, and the GOP on the right, but the democrats would be more similar in general to the GOP than they would any of the other parties on the left. Doesnt change the fact they are on the left.

> On a scale from 1-100, I see the GOP about 80. I see the dems about a 70. Dem socialists about 50, socialists about 20. Greens come in at about 30 maybe? Anything to the right of Saunders, at 50, is ‘right wing.’ Anything to the left of him is ‘left wing.’

Thats an odd scale being one-sided to represent a two dimensional property.... in this scale 1 represents "the least X" and 100 represents "the most X" what is X?. A single magnitude scale makes no sense when talking about a binary unbounded spectrum.

@Free_Idealist @pyranose @georgetakei

@JonKramer

> just curious, where would you place

So keeping in mind the left isnt a single point in space... as a politicial spectrum its a bit like the real number line. There is a clear center dividing left and right in an absolute way, the 0.. but the left goes off into the negatives infinitely, and the right goes off into the positives infinitely.

In other words just because two things are on the left doesnt mean they are anywhere near eachother in the extremity of their ideology. Something at -1 (slightly on the left) will not at represent something that is -1000 (extremely left) which in turn wont look much like anything at -1000000... I mean sure they may all match a core defintiion, but some may embrace that definition to a larger extreme... much as all those numbers are all negative numbers (and thus similar in one way) they are still very different numbers.

> Democratic socialists

left

> actual socialists

left

> communist party

left

> or the Green Party...

left

That said they are all on very very different parts of the left spectrum and not at all near eachother on that spectrum, but still clearly in the left.

More important on other political spectrum scales (such as authoritarianism) these ideologies vary greatly and arent on the same sides of many of those scales.

@Free_Idealist @pyranose @georgetakei

@JonKramer

ahh there you are making the Fallacy of Composition yet again... yea this is why its clear your in the wrong, you lay into fallacies and even when they are explained to you you just ignore it and keep repeating it....

As stated, I listed over 20 specific votes and introduced bills by both Obama and Biden within the thread that are clearly left wing. So there is that but thats not the point.

You just listed a bunch of left wing things you want to see.. your upset because all the ideals adopted by the left in the USA are moderate left ideals rather than the more extreme left ideals you demand... Just because they arent as extreme as you in their leftism doesnt make them right... A person on the left doesnt have to adopt every single fathomable left-wing idea anyone can favricate in order to be considering ont he left... thats just absurd... That said there have been a ton of left wing stuff they DO support, so the point has been very well proven.

@Free_Idealist @pyranose @georgetakei

@georgetakei

I have no love for the GOP my friend, but you are criticizing them for doing the one thing the democrats arent doing and should.... Vote their conscious rather than just agreeing with the group.

We **want** politicians who are there to vote whats right, not what their party tells them to vote.

@JonKramer

> Research what an executive order is, and how it works. This doesn’t mean he is a dictator, and I never said or implied he was.

I am very well aware of what an executive order is.

They are not legally binding, they are only commands by the president. While people who directly treat him as a boss are expected to follow it, they can not be used to pass laws, pass regulations, or dictate anything to any independent body (like the FDA, FCC, etc)... he can issue them, but they are at best suggestions.

It is also highly irresponsible and abusive to issue them beyond routine administrative issues, despite the fact that they have been abused this way recently.

Regardless as you point out, this doesnt change the equation, he isnt a dictator.

> I am talking the party, not individuals.

What does this even mean... The individuals who make up the party ARE the party.. unless you mean the party manifesto itself, which also does **not** state that abortion of dead fetuses must be illegal as a party stance.

> There are several million young black men in prison who will be happy to hear of this policy change.

Yes, sadly what they did was still illegal. Thankfully Obama pardoned a HUGE number of this group specifically for these reasons.

> Correct. The Dems are a right wing party. Individual members of the party can be far more liberal.

Nope, but good to hear you meant the dems and not the left and understand they arent the same.

> Is pro war a liberal policy?

Pro war is not a left or right wing principle, That exists on a different metric (authoritarianism, as does fascism)

> Increasing the police force?

Increasing the police force would be a left-wing policy stance because it is an attempt at addressing the public welfare by protected against crime... Of course the fact our police force is evil throws a wrench in that, but that isnt Obama's or Biden's choice to make them evil. But yea as a general principle investing in community security would be a left-wing principle, while pushing to make the police for less oppressive to the individual would be a right-wing principle.

> Border patrols?

This bring up an interesting point that wasnt addressed that is important. The GOP cares about individual freedom even if its contrary to community welfare, as I said, but to be more specific "individual freedom of american citizens"

So stronger borders would be a right-wing policy because it is an attempt to favor current citizens welfare by excluding foreigners to the USA where we would have to share our resources.

Soi yea border patrols is clearly a right wing policy since it is designed to protect existing individuals in america over the community welfare of the other countries or world.

> Crime bills?

That would depend specifically on the content of the bill.

> Give me an example of something the DO, not something they vaguely talk about.

Earlier in the thread (though im not sure you were tagged) I listed about a total of 20 specific things Obama and Biden have either voted on, or introduced that are clear left-wing stances

> Show me that they are willing to fight for those things, and not just give lip service to perpetuate political theater.

Yea I did that throught the thread as mentioned

> The relevance is that all sides of the issue agree in principle with some level of force to protect the public health. Neither side mandates it though, or pushes for absolute mandates.

What is left or right wing has **nothing** to do with what policies someone in the RNC or DNC follow... Yopu can not say "most people on the left hold these principles, therefore its a principle of the left" and then use that to define what hte left and right is.

The left and right is defined... if people who consider themselves on the left follow that definition strictly vs loosly

so all that means is when the DNC and the GOP agree on something it is one of three things 1) An issue that is neither left or right wing in nature 2) a left-wing ideology the GOP adopted 3) a right wing ideology the DNC adopted.

> We are discussing the existence of left wing parties in America. I gave example that would show their existence. Examples that do not exist. Because, there is no left wing party in America.

Which is exactly why your wrong. This is an invalid logical fallacy called the fallacy of composition. You can not assume that the parts must have the same properties as the whole.

In this sense the "whole" is "left-wing ideology" (or right) and the "part" is "someone who is on the left".. A liberal who is part of the left wing does **not** need to adopt the infinite number of potential left wing policies in the whole of the universe in order to qualify as being part of the left-wing.

> No, YOU are saying that. I say they are demonstrably right wing.

Yes what i meant by that is "this is what we are debating" you debating the opposite... and in this particular quote you were failing to argue the point.

@Free_Idealist @pyranose @georgetakei

Early in my career, a technical mentor revealed two myths about the Nyquist theorem. I cover them both in this video.

https://youtu.be/UHwyHcvvem0

@JonKramer

> Not sure he did create a monopoly

Ok then this wasnt even a valid point then.

> although I assume his administration oversaw the creation of a few. But without any doubt he continued the policies for existing monopolies, in the oil and gas industry, cable TV, internet service providers, pharmaceuticals, auto manufacturers, insurance companies (that is a HUGH one under Obama) and literally thousands of other monopolies licensed by the state.

He isnt a dictator, he doesnt get to dictate the state of things. He can, at best, suggest a bill (this is rare), and he can veto bills, thats it.. You act like he can go in and change anything to whatever he wants... it doesnt work that way.

So all we can do if we are honestly evaluate if he is left or right, is not to look at the things he never had a decision to make on at all.. we look on the votes he did make the actions he did. This nonsense of "everything wasnt perfect when he left so he is right wing for not fixing everything" is so beyond absurd...

> If you have an abortion ban that says you can not remove a dead fetus from a mother, then you do not care about the body autonomy of the mother.

On this I agree, then you dont care.. however that is **not** the stance of the right as a whole, so you are just blowing hot air on that one. While they are generally against abortion, sure, but whether or not they can abort a dead fetus is not a left or right idea specifically.

> Google up “abortion ban dead fetus” for examples where this is undeniably true.

I just searched it... what I found was that an overwhelming majority (66%) of the GOP beleive abortion should be legal under extenuating circumstances such as a dead fetus, risk to the mother, rape, etc.

So yea thanks, the search confirmed this is **not** a majority held property of those on the right. More importantly it wouldnt be objectively either per my above comments.

> The right doesn’t care about body autonomy.

Seeing as you encouraged me to look it up and the actual data confirmed perfectly the scenario I said and debunked your own... seems this is clearly proven to be false if we are judging them based on their policy stance.

> If they did, they would support drug use, prostitution, abortion, trans gender surgery, etc.

Well as covered earlier they actually **do** support drug use, more so then the left anyway. While Biden actively said he would not legalize marijuana Trump said he would... and while Trump didnt fully achieve it he came pretty damn close with the Farm Bill passed.

Abortion we already covered too.

Prostitution I agree is a right-wing policy stance. The GOP, while being mostly right wing, is not synonymous with the right wing. On most issues they pick a right-wing stance on very few they pick a left-wing... this is one of the few the GOP picks a left wing stance by not supporting it.

> And ‘the left’ doesn’t support those things either. Which to me indicates that ‘the left’ is almost as far right as ‘the right.’

No you mean the DNC doesnt support it. the DNC is not the same as the left even though they as a party are on the left (a person can be on the left and hold some non-left view so long as the aggregate is clearly left). When you go down the policy list of the DNC 98% of it is all on the left, 2% might be right wing ideas.... most of the policy stance however is not a right or left principle and denotes a different metric (like authoritarianism, which is independent of left or right)

> s for vaccines, I think American history is full of forced vaccines. The 1st forced vaccines were done by George Washington (innoculations). We have had vaccine passports since about WW I. Every school kid in public school has needed one since about 1950, Public health isn’t a left or right issue, and there have always been ways to bypass vaccines.

This doesnt even address what was said... Whether forcing people to take a drug is common and has been done before has absolutely **no** relevance on if it is a left or right wing principle... To argue its been the normal since forever as some twisted argument that it is left or right wing is just nonsensical and does nothing to advance that point.

Being against forced drugging of people (personal freedom) is a right wing principle... force drugging people for the greater good is a left wing principle. The fact that it has been done before and isnt new has no bearing on that.

> Repetition is not proof.

I agree, and what you responded to was not me repeating myself, so also not relevant. I had pointed to the fact this was already proven and evidence laid out earlier in the same message.. that is not repetition, that is avoiding repetition and refering you to the original proof instead.

> When the BLM candidates control even 25% of the government, when the Rent is Too Damn High Party has even NYC, when The ANTIFA party has 100 congressmen, and 30 senators… then their MIGHT be a left wing in this country. Right now we have the theocratic right, and the Senator from a credit card company.

Yea this is also really disconnected from what is being discussed... we arent saying the country is a left-wing country... we are saying Obama and Biden were left wing... huge difference. It amazed me you cant see how poorly your arguing your point... like somehow the entire country having high rent or somethign proves Obama and Biden werent left wing.... i almost sprained my muscled rolling my eyes on this one.

@Free_Idealist @pyranose @georgetakei

@freemo@qoto.org
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hobbit_Day
22 september according to Wikipedia.

@freemo @bonifartius That’s almost correct:

The accusations happened a couple of years ago, the investigation only now got to a point when the evidence has been made public. I suggest taking a look at the publicly available evidence before saying anyone acted hastily, it might change your mind.

Perhaps relevantly Brand switched to championing much more right-wing cases after the accusations have been formally made, so a couple years ago. It might be a coincidence though, since he mostly came in there from the direction of COVID-related conspiracies.

And, in relation to another of your posts in this thread, you might want to be aware that the Depp situation is far from clear cut – he lost the cases in the UK and won the case in the US.