@freeschool
What I've seen is that depending entirely on voluntary labour, and especially people underwriting hosting costs out of their own pockets, isn't sustainable. Look at what happened to Feneas and most recently mastodon.technology . Projects that sustain themselves on donations, like Wikipedia, RiseUp.net, and Disroot.org, have a well organized team capable of paying people for essential work, not just a loose network of volunteers. (2/?)

@freeschool
You're right that money is not the heart of the issue. When I say "sustainable economic base", I mean people need to be able to put their time into maintaining software and hosted services, without it becoming a drag on their ability to sustain their own lives. In the economy we currently live in, that means at least being able to pay ongoing expenses like hosting costs without it coming out of the pockets of the people doing the maintenance work. (3/?)

@freeschool
Competing effectively with the datafarms (FarceBook, Goggle, AmaSin etc) requires more than that though. We need our most talented tech specialists to be working full-time on free code software and community-hosted services. In the current economy, that requires developing economic organizations that can pay them a living wage. But without depending on VC funding or other corrupting factors (see Douglas Rushkoff's books Life Inc. and Throwing Rocks...). (4/?)

@freeschool For me, models like #PlatformCooperatives (eg meet.coop) and #SocialEnterprises (eg @snikket_im ), are a way of hacking "business" to serve our needs for economic sustainability in the short-medium term. In the long term, I believe we need to develop a #SolidarityEconomy that can replace extractive capitalism. But those models, as well as helping to sustain our work in the short term, can be part of organizing towards that longer term goal. (5/5)

@strypey @snikket_im

-------------------

For #5 post, I like what you write but hacking people AND business would be great - and so far bending peoples arm to try on Mastodon to say something is proof in itself people could really jam and try a bit more - don't need any money to chat!

I can think of a few groups that don't even reply to messages (I might make a post about this)
And they don't even to say why or if it's a one-way only account.
It's like how to throw yourself at people when ideally one should have too but I guess that the paradox of fame or being popular.
People who ask for help or mention things sometimes also don't want to solve them or explain it more.
Groups that don't explore... etc
I'd like on Mastodon for 1 get-together so I can join, listen or moderator a time limit for each person etc and then I can die peacefully!

As far as I assume (as a template) the co-op's are often pay to play (even if it's not much) so I'm still looking for this outside outreach of even fun time...
I don't expect to be need deep in their personal stuff... but even for conflict management maybe as a show and better outcome (something better to show the real World!).

SOLIDARITY (without economy right npow in the mix)

Solidarity is good as a word.
Right now I feel stuck/magnetised to solidarity literally as it's own meaning without finance ="A union of interests, purposes or sympathies among members of a group".

Again circles seems the answer, indirectly. If you would know anyone willing to talk about these similar topics or even try anything for 5/10mins let me know. And yeah appreciate the time today - will check for sure first things tomorrow if you want to write as much as you like.
I don't get much which is so often logical or from yourself as you have been so I want to thank you for that.

@strypey
Not sure we need to compete... we need to sort the mindset out so people doesn't want to go to Facebook (if that's what you meant) or even use less data when they see how much energy is from cloud computer ( remote storage etc )

First instinctive for this post (#4) is that this measurable doesn't exist (to pay someone an increasingly astronomic living wage). It's too much already (for us funders).
The politically straight people / almost anyone Libre would never want to pay or be part of these programs / schemes or pyramid programs (so not only in the sense of Banks but also paying for people's extortionate rent again 1000+ for one month forget it- not worth it unless one month and no other skill we can't find from bored people or temporary lovers).

It's VC or almost relying on personally financed / already existing / rich-enough + donations-based stuff using my 'involvement program' to get more of these types of people doing the REAL giving - nt just 5bucks... (people will dislike it or have their own monetary problems sharing, same as everyone else! But I think one person could be convinced similar to a seminar approach of recycling ideas and reaping from each seminar new people or fresh stuff)

@strypey For part two (with read 3 after) I can see it sounds quite true from what I can confirm and reflect.

But also another truth or two (without reducing what you said) is that:

-things like this 'fail' anyway because it's not quite fail it's sometimes naturally more:
- 'we tried something new' / it was unknown / never perfect / an ongoing idea
- not mainstream / trying to half-bridge something already no bridged (like stretching protocols etc)
- something to be tested
- or the doing IS the long-term solution even if not completed in this chapter
- those people discovered something valuable (and also quit / realised something)
- rebirth of sorts
- going back to forks in roads and forking again
- covering take-overs / power trips (IRC recently)
- and yeah the people thing ^^ / breakups

GOOD EXAMPLE WAS WAS GRACEFUL SHUT DOWN OF
mastodon.technology
@ashfurrow
https://mastodon.technology
/@ashfurrow/109122540241700257
https://ashfurrow.com/blog/mastodon-technology-shutdown/
I think it wasn't too bad ACTUALLY to running something like that on that scale for 5 years in the Pandemic scales of time is maybe double that in my valuation so actually pretty good.

I don't think we should expect it for even 10 years, you know we get tired or need to pass on batons or find another hill to climb! Kids illness all sort of things...

I think people today (maybe not 10yrs back) can run it all in house and maybe should (for privacy etc)
I honest can see better trust sometimes with a bit of tested conversation with people rather than massive corporation or leading figure who might not have control anyway...

And the other bigger names you already mentioned are doing well
BUT again and - the riseup crew almost never reply to even a person part of their services, people willing to talk about themselves and where they live and even blow away any paranoia - all our gratitude just sits doing very little other than the option to paypal / librepay only pretty much. IF THAT IS IT, NO WONDER ANYTHING WOULD GO DOWN. IT'S A CRYING SHAME PEOPLE DON'T EVEN TRY CHAT WITH PEOPLE and actually shameful. NEED MASS, people can suss people out and faster we do that individually the better.

Almost nowadays if people don't respond to you or can't HELP YOU *FIND* SOMETHING (help you help them) then it's like waiting for it on a plate (my experience contacting people is like this where they see people as useless unless just what they need in the moment (which is a very low chance way of doing things)... so people don't see the point or it's waste of time even to make friends (with your audience, clients or otherwise name in relationships!) - those services will lose touch / burn out / be too paranoid without trusting their hearts and practising the art of trusting people or even just getting them to do small things as a test...

CONCLUSION
So overall voluntary labour maybe needs to get better either way (with or without money) but also realising the other side of the coin maybe increasingly doesn't exist (literally money isn't there)... because giving money is a political act and banks would never give it to us NEVER!
And then through governments it's also increasingly the same as grants are testing grounds or 'whoever can find gold for us' then they get a small % of what they will do after (hence only pay out to those plans and test they see that will pay them back) <--- this is also not good.

SUMMARY I THINK IS ACCEPT THIS IS THE HARD ROAD THEY GAVE US AND ALMOST THE BETTER WAY AS ONCE WE HAVE IT WITH PEOPLE IT'S MORE SOLID EVEN IF WE HAVE TO STILL DO THE JOBS AND TAKE WHAT WE CAN GET <--- THIS WE CAN'T AVOID OR CAN DECREASE BY DOING BETTER PEOPLE WORK
THERE IS NO WAY OTHER THAN INCREMENT BEST WE CAN BECAUSE WE KNOW SYSTEM TOTALLY NOT IS NOT SUPPORTING US / IS DISGUISING HELP / CLOAKING INTENTIONS just TO GET TRUST or more MONEY AND THEN RUG PULL US AGAIN FOR NEXT BRIGHT IDEA THEY HAVE TO COERCE PEOPLE INTO MORE DEPENDENCY ETC / USING SERVICES AS PROFIT MACHINES / PUMPS AND DUMPS ETC )

So I'm going for the people and I realise money (and people behind it) are more clever. WE the general people are more innocent and naive in the business sense - so FLOSS naturally fails politcally (because it's not that way inclined) and also as it doesn't have teeth to cut money from people...
money is political and it's not even like they taking it is neutral or giving money away is nothing - it has similar seeds to get them paid or sell people out down the line...
Example: Some churches might choose to take from it's visitors more than state and as a kind of fall back - some actually cut themselves off / got cut off from state (showing religion doesn't coming in to it or perhaps that's precisely why they cut / got cut as money / believing in banks is totally a different belief that 'giving to all people' or godly giving ways)

God Given + Some principles or Bank Borrowing?
(something like that)

Sorry it's long/

So those Wikipedia, RiseUp.net, and Disroot.org are fine examples but also I think there are enough individual rich / comfortable people or people to cover it and THESE PEOPLE are who we need to find and tap into (and let them tap into us) IF people find them and let others in to their world!
and tested them out... and enjoy!

Seriously I've been trying for years JUST to get audio chat with many people and recently yes but like for years near 0... like hitting your head on a wall (and so give me a group and I'll show you what I can do, but achieving other FLOSS people's will-power I can only temporarily conjure <-- they need to give their time or roll with different people almost forced / for survival!)

I guess I'd like to test my way(s) without claiming it a total solution but I bet I could increment a whole lot more interaction from 0 money / people sitting at home scrolling memes if they / we tried a bit more (like 20mins audio chat wtf!)

examples here of those gracious to allow chatting and then give the ok to my edits after

http://freeschool.0id.org/?s=audio

So since anyway people must get jobs or need another way (no donations or getting paid is not going to pay 1000's of rent and bills). Stux for example has been doing this well with many things BUT he still thinks money is 'just a tool' (slapping my own face) and banks are not bad ordeciding people's future!
There is a 'free trade' lot of people who also see it similar and totally blind to the negative maths of banks who generate debt for people to throw their lives into infinitely while depreciating themselves as banks and gov increasingly don't care / are abusive!
I think I can speak for myself as 'seeing a way if someone has the will' but even on a tech basis people are using TONS OF GIGABYTES and massive footprints / backups of video just for what is not a lot of video movement - just waste bandwidth / energy (even if it's from American Amazon S3 which isn't the best net space)

Not trying to steer this as hate but people have to see the rotting everything inside out and do the math or other exchanges / political alignments!

MORAL OF THAT STORY:
There is a BIG disconnect somewhere / somehow probably with food and shelter being attached and people are seeing not another way so accept banks (partially true but doesn't help to not consider it's manipulation and ultimatum exactly for the food and rents going up x3 right now... as soon as only bad jobs are created and not paying anyway maybe only then the y see it's not enough to exist for others in this way more than gel what ideas we can together, even in the mind first which probably is the most part to be honest- people start almost without it sometimes)

Hard thing to admit ALL of it has been planned and evolved for us as a grip for them.,, and innocent of us to think money is neutral or doesn't have decisions by leading groups of uncaring / financial people (I wrote Stux before, at least he listened)

Volunteers with their jobs anyway will have to do for now and I think just working on this way as they hard way is more the sure way as people need to get money from bad system either which way.,.. just sucking the volunteers better is the constant better end game (it's attrition, which they win but by increasing people's strength and decreasing bank usage = reducing their power and limit it a bit more each increment as we learn to use ourselves or just realise a bit more).

I do think paying for work / contracts / even mercenaries / lover is good but anyway it's short lived. Ants might as well admit they can't create money or even want free debt as it catches up faster and is expensive politically / has strings etc.

They have us born into it and parents didn't know much otherwise or shrugged notto continue their own protest through family ... so onwards we go with that in mind probably more the single people or die-hard families who understand what's at state and shelling up doesn't work well down the line when prices get even more crazy / greedy.

The loose network of volunteers IF THEY BELIEVE will be ok or compliment to those searching endlessly for money

IF THEY CAN ALLOW A LEADER AND TEST THEM AS EVEN A SHIT MOTIVATOR OR AS AUDITION AS A EXPERT FOR ANYTHING (like I would host circles and they could plug me in into anythign for that) then I think somehow more will be learned by everyone even if it's failure after day 1 or day 100- it would be rolling feature to plug into the next group of people or project)...

You see a few people with infinite energy exist, bored people are out there but others just can't bring their level down to see what others have to say and do a test measurably at the end to justify their doubts - they actually kill it dead from few messages and not experimenting to say they tried and then 'no thanks'
To find something for someone or give themselves an activity, report back to each other etc... so much to do!

This message might create mixed messages by it's length but the will is very important (I have it) and measurable test to see how people feel maybe so people don't have to stay up later and keep writing once they find someone- but it is like pulling teeth! Just pretending would work almost like an auditioning process for roles or general likeability and then will produce a ragtag bunch of people who can find their place themselves... much like how armies formed when someone step on a box and asks them to join and with little skill needed... again attrition and lower level expectation I think is the key to allow mass (talking and associating more will help everything).

In chats often I don't script every little thing but can take care of things before and after so it good stuff comes to us if we give time to 'it' / the atmosphere which produces - but you have to be creative or let thoughts come to yourself, to practise being live and direct to 1 person or others listening...
I'd sure like that. That's what I suggest as well as thinking I know how to pivot or expect things in people. We're going to have to learn it all!

@freeschool I can't cope with walls of text this long, so I'm going to leave it there. I strongly suggest you learn to get your point across in way less words, as I suspect most people can't be bothered wading through that much text. It can be helpful to write up a blog post to get the thoughts out, then post a TL;DR summary in the 'verse, with a link to the blog piece.

@freeschool Also FWIW when people use "(1/?)" or "(1/5)" it means the post is part of a larger stream of thought that won't fit into 500 characters (the default limit on Mastodon). It's more useful to read and respond to the whole thing than reacting to individual bits out of context.

@freeschool If you read back through your long, rambling posts, and sum up your key points in a couple of concise posts, I'm happy to continue the discussion. I'm not obliged to do that work for you. Insisting people continue to engage with unedited rants, will only result in getting ignored, if not muted/ blocked. Just saying :)

@strypey
I think this is useful experience you have / thanks for the context.