If there's one thing I've learned from my years participating in the fediverse, it's that developing technological potential is not enough. Realizing the benefits of that potential requires a sustainable economic base. In the case of the fediverse, that means the organization and funds to maintain instances and ongoing software development. But the principle applies to technologies in general.
@strypey FUNDING AND BANKS MAKE ME THINK:
- we might have to accept banks are not sustainable
(unless you want to sustain the creation of debt [money + %'s] all the while)
- we might have to accept no funding (money givers from root are often not aligned at all and even opposite so can't grow much from that)
- to even accept that given free labour or voluntary force we couldn't even tie our shoelaces between us with anything political (this is based on my experience and personal research both of the quality of people and of willpower... which money is also a poor replacement for)
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SUMMARY:
I think communication itself and will-power and self-security has long been a problem of which money/funding only delays / temporarily solves and still projects can fall apart after this temporary relief or get together...
so 'the problem' is money somewhat but I see more than money is the people.
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OPTIONAL READING
READ MORE IF WANTE
BUT THAT LAST LINE ABOVE SAYS IT ALL AND PEOPLE ARE NOT WORKING ON IT (JUST TECH!)
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Strypey I've read you're recent posts and they seem very agreeable... so wouldn't want to change that by saying something in response that defers that but obviously it might not be a simple thing or connects to many things which I will mention here (and you can say which you think yay or nay applies)
PEOPLE DON'T LIKE TO DO THEIR HOMEWORK OR HARD WAY
It's difficult both ways don't get me wrong (people who think there is a 1 shot answer are probably wrong or not realising the incremental stranglehold the banks / gov and THEIR TECH has on is powerful.... but using people's voluntary time (Debian style) is much better than waiting for money...
so still the system of voluntary as main weapon I see as true but yes accepting / developing personal quality between us isn't easy to form and disconnect connections seamlessly.
It's almost all about 'how' to deal with people and how to talk to them after you know they like this or that programming language or know 0 -
it's such basic things on how to talk to each other!...
but left unchecked gets everyone messed up so I suggest start from scratch almost and incrementing good vibes...
Satellites of nicer people will eventually win much more than mercenary-like payments and contract with EU grants.
With time micro-managed better / more easier the contribution can happen... or even allowed! (it's hard to contribute and I do have sympathy that 'human resources' can be labeled so not to deal with a lot of crap associated with people or to put people 'in their place')
Eventually we all have to learn and by doing things from a humanised point of view I think expression is let our and harmonised / normalised in people.
Again I hope this doesn't divert from what you were saying..
The problem is largely not money, and more than just speed and getting paid it's actually more about a kind of humanity thing in itself as we work on anything!
So for the exact same reason money is 'good' and 'works' is exactly that ignorance or damaged done along the way in exchange to get something fast (misunderstood) in it's chain of processes (people don't understand money, don't understand their projects, don't talk about it enough, just want to code code code).
i.e. if you can't *find* a way use my time and others people's then this more of a problem than the unsustainable bank route or legal criminals who make sure use added % to money / tax all transactions.
We have had enough tech at various stages BUT Tech is not enough. Or to put it in another way TECH IS OK but WE DO NEAR-0 IN THE STRONG VOICING WITH EMPATHY STUFF
so much is needed
- INCREASING REAL LOGIC /
- ALLOWING FOR PEOPLE TO BE THEMSELVES BUT REASONING WHY AND WHY NOT.
etc
What's needed a lot more often these types of label but feel free to re-label it as it crosses over many human things largely not studied or paid as a job!!
- Socio-Technological Concepts
- Psychology
- Solving insecurity of programmers etc
- Solving the binary / machine-like mannerisms of Techn people
- Incorporating more discussion
- More circles / practising tolerance while making progress
-ENJOYING IMPERFECTION OF PEOPLE
-UPGRADING THE MINDSETs
- Realising all is not just numbers and code! It's about unity people more often AT THE SAME TIME!
It's different pattern to what technology is used to (perhaps deliberately cutting these above lists out in order to make technology happens! (lol which ends up de-humanising themselves)
The full circle without humans and 'fruit' of technology is the same bad/mismanaged hands of bigtech / government mostly steering it or blocking it... or just plain profit minded people going to far from those they work with.
HAPPY TO AUDIO CHAT THIS ALSO WITHOUT NEEDING TEXT TIME (CHATS ARE USUALLY FASTER OR MORE SATISFYING)
LONG ONE BUT PLEASE TRY YOUR BEST WHATEVER YOU PREFER
@freeschool For context,
I've been active in the development of ethical tech projects since I started getting involved with Indymedia style projects in the late 1990s. I joined the fediverse before ActivityPub existed (was on Identi.ca when it still used StatusNet and the OStatus protocol). Until 2021, I was an active organizer in community projects like fediverse.party . I've been observing what works and what doesn't for a long time. (1/?)
@freeschool
What I've seen is that depending entirely on voluntary labour, and especially people underwriting hosting costs out of their own pockets, isn't sustainable. Look at what happened to Feneas and most recently mastodon.technology . Projects that sustain themselves on donations, like Wikipedia, RiseUp.net, and Disroot.org, have a well organized team capable of paying people for essential work, not just a loose network of volunteers. (2/?)
@freeschool
You're right that money is not the heart of the issue. When I say "sustainable economic base", I mean people need to be able to put their time into maintaining software and hosted services, without it becoming a drag on their ability to sustain their own lives. In the economy we currently live in, that means at least being able to pay ongoing expenses like hosting costs without it coming out of the pockets of the people doing the maintenance work. (3/?)
@freeschool
Competing effectively with the datafarms (FarceBook, Goggle, AmaSin etc) requires more than that though. We need our most talented tech specialists to be working full-time on free code software and community-hosted services. In the current economy, that requires developing economic organizations that can pay them a living wage. But without depending on VC funding or other corrupting factors (see Douglas Rushkoff's books Life Inc. and Throwing Rocks...). (4/?)
@strypey
Not sure we need to compete... we need to sort the mindset out so people doesn't want to go to Facebook (if that's what you meant) or even use less data when they see how much energy is from cloud computer ( remote storage etc )
First instinctive for this post (#4) is that this measurable doesn't exist (to pay someone an increasingly astronomic living wage). It's too much already (for us funders).
The politically straight people / almost anyone Libre would never want to pay or be part of these programs / schemes or pyramid programs (so not only in the sense of Banks but also paying for people's extortionate rent again 1000+ for one month forget it- not worth it unless one month and no other skill we can't find from bored people or temporary lovers).
It's VC or almost relying on personally financed / already existing / rich-enough + donations-based stuff using my 'involvement program' to get more of these types of people doing the REAL giving - nt just 5bucks... (people will dislike it or have their own monetary problems sharing, same as everyone else! But I think one person could be convinced similar to a seminar approach of recycling ideas and reaping from each seminar new people or fresh stuff)
