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What I described were the events on the video.. "framing" from either side doesnt change the fact that what I just said was a literal explanation of what is clearly heard and seen on the video and nothing else.
Framing wont change those facts so why should they change my opinion?
@buttered_poasties @Weedle @ChristiJunior @sickburnbro @coolboymew
@freemo @realcaseyrollins @buttered_poasties @Weedle @ChristiJunior @sickburnbro @coolboymew I’m not entirely sure that your description is accurate, but you certainly seem to, so your opinion makes sense.
@realcaseyrollins@counter.fedi.live
What part of my description isnt accurate? I mean I can point to whatever part in the video that shows every point I described and easily show you were each event happened. I cant imagine anyone can interpret any of it different since it was all captured rather clearly.
@ChristiJunior @buttered_poasties @sickburnbro @Weedle @coolboymew @realcaseyrollins@social.teci.world
@realcaseyrollins@social.teci.world
I never claimed why he died, it isnt relevant, I said he was strangled, not that he died due to be strangled... Even if he died because of the medications, that fact that cauvin continued to strangle him 3 minutes after his fellow officer told him that Floyd's heart stopped stil tells me he intended the man dead. Even if he didnt kill him he sure as hell made sure he stayed dead and refused to let others help resuscitate him. So he is still guilty even if what you say is true, not is what you say in contrast to anything i said.
@buttered_poasties @Weedle @ChristiJunior @sickburnbro @realcaseyrollins@counter.fedi.live @coolboymew
@realcaseyrollins@counter.fedi.live
I never said hold him down was wrong.. I said once he was informed by someone trained in taking a pulse and giving CPR that the man's heart stopped then there was no justification of any kind fo rhim sitting on the man and refusing a fllow cop from delivering CPR.
What do you feel justifies sitting on a mans chest that doesnt have a heart beat and blocking others from giving CPR?
@ChristiJunior @buttered_poasties @sickburnbro @Weedle @coolboymew @realcaseyrollins@social.teci.world
@realcaseyrollins@counter.fedi.live
If that were true then why didnt he take the 5 seconds it takes to put leg and hand cuffs on him then get off? That would alleviate all his feas of a dead guy coming ack to life and running away, and being unconscious would have been trivial to do.
So considering he coud have easily addressed all those concerns your argument basically boils dow to "He was scared he might come back to life"... in other words, wanted him dead and to stay dead.
@ChristiJunior @buttered_poasties @sickburnbro @Weedle @coolboymew @realcaseyrollins@social.teci.world
@freemo @ChristiJunior @buttered_poasties @sickburnbro @Weedle @coolboymew @realcaseyrollins Read what I wrote.
Hint: people in fear don’t take chances.
@realcaseyrollins@counter.fedi.live
Yes, and not sure how you can be scared of someone whose heart isnt beating. That excuse only holds any water up until his heart stopped, after that it ceases to be a valid excuse.
@ChristiJunior @buttered_poasties @sickburnbro @Weedle @coolboymew @realcaseyrollins@social.teci.world
Seen quit a few. I have not objected to anything they did while he was alive and resisting arrest (even though he never took a swing or attacked the officers I still gave them the benefit of the doubt). But again once your told a man's heart has stopped there is no excuse for his actions.
@realcaseyrollins@counter.fedi.live @ChristiJunior @buttered_poasties @Weedle @coolboymew @realcaseyrollins@social.teci.world
Yes he would have been not guilty if he had acted that way.
@realcaseyrollins@counter.fedi.live @ChristiJunior @buttered_poasties @sickburnbro @coolboymew @realcaseyrollins@social.teci.world
Because when we talk about things like murder, especially 2nd degree murder, intent matters.
The case was not about if he caused the death, it is about if he intended to cause death or if death was due to negligence on his part. If he caused the death and that deathw as neither due to negligence or intent then he wasnt guilty of the charges at hand.
@realcaseyrollins@counter.fedi.live @ChristiJunior @buttered_poasties @sickburnbro @coolboymew @realcaseyrollins@social.teci.world
When did I say he had no hand in his death, you just pulled that out of thin air.. You asked me if he got off him when his heart stopped if he should still be guilty, I said no.. I said nothing about if he had a hand in his death or not.
@realcaseyrollins@counter.fedi.live @ChristiJunior @buttered_poasties @sickburnbro @coolboymew @realcaseyrollins@social.teci.world
"It certainly wasnt the way he was holding him down"... both autopsy reports and several doctors all disagree with you there.
Quote from one autopsy examiner:
"died as a result of mechanical asphyxiation"
Quote from the other autopsy examiner:
"cardiopulmonary arrest complicating law enforcement subdual, restraint and neck compression."
@realcaseyrollins@counter.fedi.live @ChristiJunior @buttered_poasties @sickburnbro @coolboymew @realcaseyrollins@social.teci.world
No you just arent paying attention. As I already covered simply killing someone is not enough to be charged with 2nd degree murder, for that you must show intent among other things.
@realcaseyrollins@counter.fedi.live @ChristiJunior @buttered_poasties @sickburnbro @coolboymew @realcaseyrollins@social.teci.world
No because the knee on the kneck could be excused away as neccesary when the man was alive in order to protect his own life (this is questionable but at least plausable).. So can be seen as self-defense. Once it (perhaps accidentally) caused the man to die the self-defense excuse evaporates, there is no need to maintain the position for self defense at that point and only serves the purpose of making sure the man dies and is not revived, so at that point it demonstrates the death wasnt accidental but purposeful.
@realcaseyrollins@counter.fedi.live @ChristiJunior @buttered_poasties @sickburnbro @coolboymew @realcaseyrollins@social.teci.world
> Why would he need to maintain the position if he was informed that the man was dead though?
He wouldnt, thats the point, unless his intent was for the man to die there is no reason to not only sit on the mans chest after being informed his heart stopped but to refuse to let his fellow officer help him when his fellow officer asked him to get off so he could tend to him.
> Furthermore you are assuming that there is a chance he could be revived. Once the body was loaded (since no CPR was attempted on scene by responders) we can assume that something was attempted. Since this did not revive Floyd I dont see how this would have made a difference how long the cop was on top of him.
It makes a **huge** difference, performing CPR shortly after the heart stopped (as the fellow officer was trying to do) may very well have saved his life. When a heart stops seconds/minutes count.
@realcaseyrollins@counter.fedi.live @ChristiJunior @buttered_poasties @sickburnbro @coolboymew @realcaseyrollins@social.teci.world
Two points:
So why did he want to kill him? Was his reasoning for desiring to kill Floyd ever established, or are we just assuming that he is evil for evil's sake?
If seconds count, why was CPR not preformed at the scene?
> So why did he want to kill him?
The most reasonable answer is because cops commonly go on a power trip and when this power is challenged (such as the cases of resisting arrest) they tend to get vengeful, a pattern I've personally witnessed several times. But this is just speculation, while it is very clear he intended the man to die we can only guess as to the multitude of murders.
> why was CPR not preformed at the scene?
We already covered this, because chauvin refused to let people perform CPR. As I already stated a fellow police officer on the scene when he detected no pulse immediately asked chauvin to get off so he could tend to Floyd, and this would have likely entailed CPR. Chauvin however refused his fellow officers request to try to care for Floyd and instead continued to sit on top of him preventing others from caring for him.
This is the very reason he is guilty as sin, he blocked his fellow officers active attempts to care for Floyd.
@realcaseyrollins@counter.fedi.live @ChristiJunior @buttered_poasties @sickburnbro @coolboymew @realcaseyrollins@social.teci.world
Everyone, welcome to justice in 2021. I hope you don't make anyone dislike you.
Nope, you a little retarded or something.. I said the exact opposite... He clearly demonstrated he wanted the man dead and thus is a bad guy. What makes him bad is speculation and less relevant.
@realcaseyrollins@counter.fedi.live @ChristiJunior @buttered_poasties @Weedle @coolboymew @realcaseyrollins@social.teci.world
No I said that is very common and the most likely among many possible motives.. implying that I can not be certain of the motive though it is very clear the murder was intentional.
@realcaseyrollins@counter.fedi.live @ChristiJunior @buttered_poasties @sickburnbro @coolboymew @realcaseyrollins@social.teci.world
So it was intentional, you just dont know what the intention was
No not what i said, its clear the intent was to have him dead.. the motivation behind that intent isnt obvious as he never made that clear.
@realcaseyrollins@counter.fedi.live @ChristiJunior @buttered_poasties @sickburnbro @coolboymew @realcaseyrollins@social.teci.world
@freemo @Weedle @realcaseyrollins @ChristiJunior @buttered_poasties @sickburnbro @coolboymew
its clear the intent was to have him dead
Based on what evidence? No one has presented clear evidence that he wanted him dead and that was the only possible intent. All I’ve seen are assumptions.
@realcaseyrollins@social.teci.world
Based on the fact that once his heart stop beating he physically prevented fellow officers from saving him despite them trying to.. physically blocking people from trying to save a man who you know his heart has stopped shows clear intent you want the man dead.
@buttered_poasties @Weedle @ChristiJunior @sickburnbro @realcaseyrollins@counter.fedi.live @coolboymew
So you admit they wanted him dead and to remain dead on the off chance he might hurt someone if his life was saved.. bearing in mind at no point during the encounter did he attack a police officer, he resisted arrest but never actively assaulted an officers according to eye witnesses.
@realcaseyrollins@counter.fedi.live @ChristiJunior @buttered_poasties @sickburnbro @coolboymew @realcaseyrollins@social.teci.world
Being afraid of what someone **might** do is no excuse for ensuring a person dies and stays dead. Least of all from a police officer.
@realcaseyrollins@counter.fedi.live @ChristiJunior @buttered_poasties @sickburnbro @coolboymew @realcaseyrollins@social.teci.world
He was informed that his heart wasnt beating.. so "maintining the submission" servers no purpose once he knew that other than to ensure the man remained dead.
@realcaseyrollins@counter.fedi.live @ChristiJunior @buttered_poasties @sickburnbro @coolboymew @realcaseyrollins@social.teci.world
@realcaseyrollins@social.teci.world
Even if that completely absurd line of reasoning that a deadman will rise from the grave completely on his own and run away were true or reasonable it doesnt excuse the actions... We are talking about an arrest over spending some forged money. Floyd was at no point violent nor was the arrest over anything particularly serious. So caring more about him getting away than him surviving is not reasonable regardless.
That said presuming Chauvin could think such an absurd thing in the first place seems very unlikely, chauvin knows people who's heart isnt beating wont just randomly restart and they will be at full strength.
@buttered_poasties @Weedle @ChristiJunior @sickburnbro @realcaseyrollins@counter.fedi.live @coolboymew
@freemo @buttered_poasties @Weedle @ChristiJunior @sickburnbro @realcaseyrollins @coolboymew
that a deadman will rise from the grave completely on his own and run away were true or reasonable it doesnt excuse the actions
Nah, it definitely excuses the actions. It makes them reasonable measures to prevent, well, Floyd from running away.
Floyd was at no point violent
He was fairly violent, it was shown in the video. It’s available on the internet, you can check it out here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YPSwqp5fdIw
nor was the arrest over anything particularly serious
No, the arrest wasn’t, but the guy most certainly was. I believe they ran a check on who he was beforehand, so they had a good idea on who they were dealing with.
So caring more about him getting away than him surviving is not reasonable regardless
That might be your point of view, but it doesn’t make it less valid if that’s what was going through Chauvin’s mind.
That said presuming Chauvin could think such an absurd thing in the first place seems very unlikely, chauvin knows people who’s heart isnt beating wont just randomly restart and they will be at full strength.
Well then he knows more about hearts than you, I guess, because he (as well as everyone in this thread other than you, apparently) knows that it is indeed possible for someone’s heart to start beating after it stops beating. And this assumes that when they could not read a pulse, his heart was not beating. And furthermore, Chauvin also likely recognized that Floyd likely didn’t need to be at “full strength” in order to get away.
@realcaseyrollins@social.teci.world
I've seen the videos, but if you think i missed soemthing please show a video where Floyd actively assaulted an officer (rather than just struggled to get away).
There is a few seconds after someones heart stops it can reset,past that it is impossible... Anyone else int he thread claiming otherwise doesnt have a clue what their talking about. A 5 second internet search would tell you that, its not hard knowledge to confirm.
@buttered_poasties @Weedle @ChristiJunior @sickburnbro @realcaseyrollins@counter.fedi.live @coolboymew
@freemo @buttered_poasties @Weedle @ChristiJunior @sickburnbro @realcaseyrollins @coolboymew
just struggled to get away
I mean if you think struggling is okay, say so, but don’t pretend like that’s not violence.
“There was a struggle”
“Ah! Sounds like peace to me!”
@realcaseyrollins@social.teci.world
I never said it was "ok" .. but it isnt violence against an officer.. he made no attempt to harm anyone and made no threat to anyones life verbally or physically.
@buttered_poasties @Weedle @ChristiJunior @sickburnbro @realcaseyrollins@counter.fedi.live @coolboymew
@freemo @Weedle @realcaseyrollins @ChristiJunior @buttered_poasties @sickburnbro @coolboymew
ensuring a person dies
Here you go assuming that’s what he was trying to do again. Stop doing that unless you’re going to actually prove it.
@realcaseyrollins@social.teci.world
His actions clearly prove it. When you block people from tending to a man with no beating heart then you obviously want him dead.. him being in fear, as you suggested, only implies his fear was the motivation for wanting him dead, nothign more.
@buttered_poasties @Weedle @ChristiJunior @sickburnbro @realcaseyrollins@counter.fedi.live @coolboymew
@freemo @buttered_poasties @Weedle @ChristiJunior @sickburnbro @realcaseyrollins @coolboymew
When you block people from tending to a man with no beating heart then you obviously want him dead
That’s not entirely true. There can be multiple reasons for doing that, one of which is to prevent the man from getting up and leaving if he happens to recover while no one is holding him down.
@realcaseyrollins@social.teci.world
That makes no sense, chauvin was aware he didnt have a heart beat.. he was also trained in CPR so was aware a persons heart doesnt spontaniously just start beating again on its own and he gets up and runs away.
@buttered_poasties @Weedle @ChristiJunior @sickburnbro @realcaseyrollins@counter.fedi.live @coolboymew
Perhaps it's possible but I doubt it's all that common
@realcaseyrollins@social.teci.world
In the few cases where a heart will restart on its own its after a few seconds at most.. and this is still rare.
@buttered_poasties @Weedle @ChristiJunior @sickburnbro @realcaseyrollins@counter.fedi.live @coolboymew
@realcaseyrollins@social.teci.world
No a few second window (5 - 10) doesnt mean its possible beyond the first few seconds... he sat on him for 3 minutes after his heart stopped.. so no for almost the entierty of that time it was not possible. This also assumes his heart stopped the moment his pulse was taken.
@buttered_poasties @Weedle @ChristiJunior @sickburnbro @realcaseyrollins@counter.fedi.live @coolboymew
heart stopped because he was tired.
@realcaseyrollins@social.teci.world
He is probably thinking of arrhythmia and not someones heart stopping. A completely stopped heart almost never just starts up on its own.
@buttered_poasties @Weedle @ChristiJunior @sickburnbro @realcaseyrollins@counter.fedi.live @coolboymew
@realcaseyrollins@social.teci.world
Unfortunately even if you go that route the law was clearly demonstrated to have a burden of care placed on the police officer. If someone in your custody falls ill, particularly fatally so, an officer is very much obligated to tend to him. Not doing so would be manslaughter by legal tests.. So at best your arguing he is still guilty but only to 2 of the three charges.
@buttered_poasties @Weedle @ChristiJunior @sickburnbro @realcaseyrollins@counter.fedi.live @coolboymew
Officers are not required to sacrifice their safety in order to provide care. This is also the reason EMTs are not required to go in when the scene isn't stable.
@realcaseyrollins@social.teci.world
Because they showed adequate care for Tony... When he stopped responding they checked multiple times if he is ok and verified he was still breathing. They loosened their hold on him and spend the rest of the time continually checking if he was breathing, and made sure when the EMT arrived that the EMT was able to care for him as well.
@buttered_poasties @Weedle @ChristiJunior @sickburnbro @realcaseyrollins@counter.fedi.live @coolboymew
From what I remember frommy rewatch yesterday and from the transcript, yes. As soon as they arrived with the uhhh, hold patient thibgy, Chauvin stopped the hold
But the factors of resisting arrest and using established protocols make it likely this was just unfortunate.
Ms. Taser is a perfect example.
