@toplesstopics Hi, there is an initiative for a new server list underway and i see an issue with a proposed rule. The thing is that nudity and pornography are proposed to be treated the same, and that feels wrong.
I thought before i say something, you might be a lot more qualified to propose a better solution. I hope this is a reasonable request, if so please share your thoughts on this.
Easy to read pdf:
https://jeffreyfreeman.me/files/united_federation_of_instances_proposal.pdf
Please see chapter 3, rule 6 for what i mean.
Github repo:
https://gitlab.com/ufoi/constitution/-/blob/master/proposal.tex
(line 173 is what i mean, currently:
\item Nudity and pornography must be posted either unlisted, with a content warning, or both.)
@freemo
It's absolutely wrong to say nudity and pormography are the same and I bet you even include "female looking nipples" as "nudity" but not "male looking nipples." if mastodon could not be #sexist, #misogynistic and #transphobic like all the centralized platforms run by #thepatriarchy, that would be amazing.
@admitsWrongIfProven
🇳🇱
Just suggest more appropriate wording on a merge request, this is why we asked you.. I will be happy to consider improved wording.
@freemo @toplesstopics Exactly. We should not make the rules as men, we should listen to someone who knows the impact of misoginy. Cleo, please help us out here with a proposal how the rule should look!
@freemo
I will try to find time to take a look at it later this week. The first I've heard of it is from getting tagged into this thread. I just know from 15+ years as a topless equality activist, "banned from every platform you've heard from and some you haven't," that any US-focused platform or media (so, all the big boys) ALWAYS categorizes "female nipples" as "nudity" and "nudity" as "sexual," which are both blatantly untrue and quintessentially misogynistic and transphobic, yet it's just the assumed position by everyone and it pisses me off.
As you can tell, I have strong feelings about this. 🙃
@admitsWrongIfProven
When i wrote that point I wasnt really thinking topless but rather bottom nudity, and with the assumption both sexes would be treated equally.
I look forward to your improved wording, but it sounds like you wont get any objections from me and instead welcome your input.
@icedquinn @toplesstopics @freemo Hm yes. The weak point we might have is to enable donations. We need some way for users to help instance providers. I hope that the rather low profile compared to for-profit ad revenues enables us to not copy the mistakes of other socials.
@freemo
Thank you for already being different than all the unquestioningly sexist tech bros at all the centralized for-profit platforms. 😜
@admitsWrongIfProven
Doing the best I can.. I always agreed with you anyway, it makes no sense a woman being topless is any worse than a man. So its not something you have to convince me of :)
@freemo
That is an incredible relief, honestly. Sorry for assuming, it's just that in EVERY OTHER CASE, female nipples get counted as nudity, and thus the only places I can even be topless are on sites that allow full body nudity--which is only the case on sites that allow full on porn.
Tl;Dr I have to use PORN sites just to exist topless, exactly like any man can do on ANY website 🙃 (even Twitch, since they established their "hot tubs and pools" category)
@admitsWrongIfProven
I totally understand the feeling of being the under dog and going in ready for a fight, I've been there in other context. No worries.
Yea full body pornographic photos are not on par with casual topless photos, thats for sure.
@toplesstopics @freemo Maybe, the federated nature of this can help us push some ethics over the discrimination you so rightly criticise. At the very least, we don't have a company in power that can just pull the rug for economical reasons, like it happened to many times before. No ad revenue here to be considered.
@admitsWrongIfProven
🤬🤬🤬🤬🤬 And you know they include "female looking nipples" as nudity but not "male looking nipples," like everywhere else that caters to the puritanical misogyny and transphobia of the US 🙃
@freemo
We say nothing about nipples or even what constitutues nudity. This is intended to be open to discussion. If you feel the current wording is wrong just suggest your edits, we will discuss and hopefully incorperate them, thats why this is open to all.
@freemo @toplesstopics @admitsWrongIfProven
I took a swing at it -
Partly b/c it seemed like it would create a minimum of two 'verses, one 'SFW', one 'NSFW'.
Partly b/c I thought of a gazillion other topics that ought be behind a CW.
Partly because I work with a global team and am really aware of my 'network privilege'.
Proposed 'TL;DR'
Boobs, Bombs, or Beans - __All__ multimedia goes behind a CW, and every user actively and affirmatively chooses to view it.
I offered my perspective there, but its just an opinion. I want to see how the conversation progresses before I solidify my view either way. I think it was a great contribution.
I also am looking forward to hear @toplesstopics 's take on it before deviding what opinion to support.
Thanks for the wonderful ideas.
@jonathonbarton @freemo @toplesstopics @admitsWrongIfProven Are you proposing all images go behind a CW? That would be a flat no from me, I’d be out, as images are my primary use-case for social media. I might be misunderstanding though.
I do understand that this is a difficult sort of problem, and I don’t actually have a proposed solution. Except maybe to say that global commercial social networks have struck a balance, and maybe that should be the starting point?
I agree with you, for me enforcing all CW all the time is too overreaching.
You should mention your objection here so it gets noted:
@freemo Urg, GitLab has blocked my account (it’s years old and I have not ever really used it) and I can’t get in. Might need some sorting with GitLab support.
@john @freemo @toplesstopics @admitsWrongIfProven Not just images, *all* multimedia.
The more I think about this, the more I realize the implicit bias in *not* socializing using "CW" as a 'headline' and putting media behind it.
ie. "You WILL see my images if you have the audacity to visit your Federated feed at any time, because my implicit bias is that everyone is affluent with a high speed, unlimited data network that costs nothing."
@john @freemo @toplesstopics @admitsWrongIfProven
Given: people pay for data (I do, $10/GB when I'm not at home on wifi)
If you *don't* habitually click ONE STINKIN' BUTTON to require users to *proactively* choose to view your content, you're spending the money in other people's pockets.
That's even before considering the content.
Could be pictures of kittens. Doesn't matter.
It's biased strongly toward assuming connections are free & nobody has objections or triggers or even preferences.
@john @freemo @toplesstopics @admitsWrongIfProven
Hell, I'd strongly get behind a campaign to rename "Content Warning" to simply "Headline" to remove the implicit stigma of using it.
@jonathonbarton @john @freemo @admitsWrongIfProven
I like "post summary," personally.
@admitsWrongIfProven @freemo @toplesstopics @jonathonbarton I get your argument, but as I say, I’m out if this get adopted. I’d prefer this was implemented at the application level, so people can choose of their clients load media by default.
Hiding images, content warnings, rule discussion
@john @freemo @toplesstopics @jonathonbarton
I completely agree that the automated image hiding only makes sense at application level, as an optional feature for everyone.
For the "CW / Title even if contents is not problematic" issue, it seems a bit too broad to be part of the base rules? After all, we are looking for a minimum standard that many communities, casual and serious, can agree on.
As an example, i tried to make a title here in the CW field. I spent quite a moment to think what to write, and still it feels like it is not entirely descriptive - i think it would be impractical to mandate because it would be a too large burden for casual tooting. It might be ok for invested scientific postings, but not for everything.
@jonathonbarton @john @freemo @toplesstopics @admitsWrongIfProven Most people don't click buttons, and each post in a timeline has a fraction of a second to gain a user's attention. This would kill engagement for artists.
Please everyone, add these opinions to the gitlab.. remember only votes on the gitlab will be counted so the only way to actually get heard is to voice your concerns there.
@freemo
I like discussing it here before I commit it officially to github, though.
@werner58 @jonathonbarton @john @admitsWrongIfProven
@toplesstopics @freemo i like that style too, since github would exclude those who don't want to make an account. Get some input from everyone, post a more refined version to github for a discussion.
Is it posted here yet? I'm stoked to see!
@admitsWrongIfProven @toplesstopics
For some different ways to discuss with the larger group see this post I made:
@admitsWrongIfProven @toplesstopics @freemo
As a philosopher, I can think of many different ways to cash out the differences between nudity and pornography but perhaps one of the best ways centers around the idea of bodies as normalized aspects of human existence, rather than focusing on them for specific purposes that we might, as a server community, agree are not suited to the specific environment we wish to create here (on the server). For instance, pornography is the use of human nudity to create sexual excitement and gratification. If we all agreed that human nudity that is being used to create sexual excitement and gratification should not be permitted on this server, then other forms of nudity should not be prohibited unless we have other rules prohibiting the use of nudity for that purpose. Ultimately, we cannot control what people do with any nudity that might be shared here for other purposes, but we have created an express rule that should allow for moderation of nudity that appears to be shared for a purpose we have deemed in appropriate on the server.
@admitsWrongIfProven
Also please feel free to open this as an issue over on the Repor.. if someone disagrees with the direction the current draft goes we want to open public discourse aboutit and make sure we consider all views before any decisions are made.
@toplesstopics