"UK antisemitic hate incidents hit new high in 2023, says charity"
Even the off-high numbers are staggering.
It may be down to how we define anti semitism
UK Government’s adoption of the IHRA definition of antisemitism
https://commonslibrary.parliament.uk/uk-governments-adoption-of-the-ihra-definition-of-antisemitism/
It is not anti-Semitic to criticise the Government of Israel, without additional evidence to suggest anti-Semitic intent.
It is not anti-Semitic to hold the Israeli Government to the same standards as other liberal democracies, or to take a particular interest in the Israeli Government’s policies or actions, without additional evidence to suggest anti-Semitic intent.
@zleap @Miro_Collas @hesgen Furthermore, the Israeli government and its supporters worldwide have lost the moral right to point fingers at anyone.
@edgeofeurope @Miro_Collas @hesgen
What baffles me about religion is that followers remain silent
Catholic church child sexual abuse, it seems catholics remain silent
Same for the C of E and simiar bible followers
Isreal does something, jews could stand up and say STOP they don't
Muslims also stay quiet when it comes to the small number who commit terror acts
These crimes do not REPRESENT the majority of world wide follows
And yet
John Lennon makde a comment about the beatles being more popular than jesus and causes huge riots and death threats
If someone draws a picture of mohammed it causes offense, I do understand why there are no images, as I think any image can influence how we see that person.
Why can't religious followers stand up for the values they learn about and hold so dearly
>jews could stand up and say STOP they don't
Sorry but that's not true. I am seeing *countless* posts from jews, here on mastodon, condemning what the gvt of Israel is doing to Palestinians.
Similarly, I have seen many muslims condemn the Hamas attacks.
(And that's just to cite the most obvious current event.)
@Miro_Collas @edgeofeurope @hesgen
Fair point there, sorry. We just don't see this in the media or don't seem to
@zleap @edgeofeurope @hesgen No, not much in the media perhaps.
@Miro_Collas @zleap @hesgen the censorship on this subject is stifling. The other day an Italian government official simply declared that it was impossible to view Oct 7th as anything but an antisemitic attack.
@edgeofeurope @Miro_Collas @hesgen
I think it has got to the point where jews are being accused of anti semitism for being critical
@zleap @Miro_Collas @hesgen The term used in that case is "Jewish self-haters"
@zleap @edgeofeurope @hesgen Yes, many instances of that have been reported. I have seen many say they've been called "self-hating", for daring to speak against the Israeli gvt.
@edgeofeurope @zleap @hesgen I read that, yes. Bit frightening, really
@Miro_Collas @zleap @hesgen Yes, especially if you know that we have half-baked Fascists in power here. The crackdown on dissent is quite worrying.
@zleap @edgeofeurope @Miro_Collas Jews worldwide express a variety of views about the Israeli government. Israeli citizens likewise.
@zleap @Miro_Collas @hesgen Some people view these crimes as outside of their group: a 'real Muslim' doesn't kill because the Qur'an says this or that, and therefore the responsibility no longer lies with the group.
Similarly, Nazis were 'monsters', and therefore not actual humans, and therefore not our problem.
Good point perhaps the media should use the same definition source so they are on the same page.
.. ....
hang on that would be too much like common sense in 2024
@Miro_Collas Physically attacking or verbally abusing Jews is antisemitism. That, at least, is really quite simple.
@hesgen I did say as much - albeit in different words. My question was about what was being expressed.
@Miro_Collas Some things in life are quite simple. If you punch a random Jew, you are an antisemite. Scream abuse at a random Jew, and you are an antisemite. Substitute "Jew" with another targeted group, and similar applies.
@hesgen Yes and no. If I punched a random Jew, it might be because he slept with my partner, nothing to do with him being Jewish. So, the reason matters.
@Miro_Collas The Jew in that case would not be "random".
@hesgen Point taken. OK, consider a drunken brawl.
My point is, abuse toward a Jew is not *necessarily* antisemitic - again, context matters.
@hesgen yes, if you include criticism of Israel in the definition of anti-Semitism. Conservatives in the US, Germany and other places adopted the version many Jewish scholars don't necessarily accept.
See discussion here as an example:
@oatmeal @israel @palestine Physically attacking or verbally abusing Jews is antisemitism.
@hesgen possibly, though criticizing Israel killing 30,000 Gazans is not antisemitism
@oatmeal @israel @palestine Who said it was?
@hesgen the aggression against kids identifiable as Jews is one thing and very likely motivated by hate, or is bullying in the same context.
"University-related antisemitic " and "Online antisemitism" need to be analyzed to see what they're about.
@babks.social recently set up a group on mastodon.social to report antisemitism. Many of the complaints I saw (I stopped following since it was clearly a bullying operation of ADL or SWU) were against people politically objecting the IDF and settlers brutality in the occupied territories and/or Gaza.
Blanket statements like the ones the organization is making in this article, or the ones ADL is making in the US need to be scrutinized more closely by the media, which should also explain what is the #IHARA and why it's controversial.
@hesgen @oatmeal @israel @palestine
If you look at the history, #Antisemitism is attacking or verbally abusing Jews WITHOUT ANY REAL REASON!
Antisemitism is result of a kind of conspiracy tale.
If I criticize #Israel because of its actual behaviour it has a real reason and this has nothing to do with antisemitism or #antizionism.
@radife @oatmeal@kolektiva.social @israel @palestine
You understand that every antisemite gives reasons, right?
@imstilljeremy @radife @israel @palestine if somebody gives reasons that are well documented for criticizing the occupying zionists, it's different than someone basing their hatred on theories
@imstilljeremy @israel @palestine
I think it is possible to distinguish between the fake reason for antisemitism (Jews are killing children for religious reason, Jews want to rule the world, Jews are illoyal against their host countries, Jews are bad , Jews are ....)
and observable behaviour of settlers in West Bank or the army in Gaza!
At least, I can do it.
Perhaps you can, but the person you are discussing this with is not and they're fairly open about it which makes your argument less theoretical and more practical.
They are quite open that they have been banned by a Jewish instance for antisemitism and chalk it up to a conspiracy headed by either the ADL or Stand With US, organizations that have almost nothing in common except being Jewish organizations.
So, perhaps you can figure out how to do it without hiding behind fake reasons, but you clearly can't tell when other people are using them. Which suggest it might be worth being a bit more cautious in jumping in to assume people called out for antisemitism are being unfairly maligned.
@imstilljeremy @radife @israel @palestine The trouble here is that many people are unfairly maligned, which is certainly not to say that everyone accused of anti-Semitism has been unfairly maligned.
I am unclear as to whether the Anti-Defamation League's broad (including pro-Palestine advocacy) definition or other definitions which include anti-Zionism have any legal or other force. I know that such definitions are ascending and the risk of such force is increasing.
On the flip side, the ascendant rhetoric around anti-Semitism threatens to shield Jews who do legitimately evil things that happen to be on a very, very long--ludicrously so--list of anti-Semitic tropes. The formulation permits the criticism of gentiles who commit these acts but to do so with a Jew becomes anti-Semitism. An obvious example is criticism of Israel's policies in the Occupied Territories. It's fine to criticize Syria for atrocities committed in that country's civil war. It is not okay to criticize Israel for analogous crimes even when committed on a much more massive scale.
All this inhibits a serious exploration of the issue. And that suits some folks just fine.
@benfell @radife @israel @palestine
Yes. When, oh when, will somebody stop and focus on the Jews? If there is one group that nobody speaks ill of or acts towards, it is Jews.
Non-Jews, unfortunately, catch far too much criticism that nobody directs towards Jews and we need to find some way to fix this imbalance.
🙄🙄🙄
Muted.
@imstilljeremy @radife @israel @palestine yes, because what Zionists are doing in Gaza is unacceptable.
It was unacceptable when British colonists did it to American Indians. It was unacceptable when Turks did it to Armenians. It was unacceptable when Nazis did it to Jews. And it is unacceptable when Zionists do it to Palestinians.
Blocked.
@benfell @imstilljeremy @radife @israel @palestine What's "unacceptable".Making sure that the *indigenous* Jewish nation is safe from murderous attacks by the Iran sponsored baby killers and hostage takers of Hamas, terrorists who use their own people as living shields?
דאלק בן אברהם @benfell @imstilljeremy @radife @israel @palestine what does any of that have to do with the obviously kooky allegation that a tiny jewish mastadon instance is secretly a nefarious front group for [insert any Jewish organization].
It's silly stupid malicious shit like this that makes people suspicious of what could be considered legitimate criticism otherwise.
@imstilljeremy said it before and will say it again, ask Sarge if it’s ok with him for me to share the arbitration documentation publicly … I’ll be very happy to do so. I’m not easily intimated by this type of obvious bullying, but it is entertaining to follow nonetheless.
Also, to have a bunch of North Americans telling an Israeli they’re antisemite, because they don’t like their politics, is exactly the problem we’re talking about. Who was it the other day, Baruch I believe who said Sikha Mekomit ?!?!?! is a #Hamas outlet.
Do you guys even speak Hebrew? Come and live and Israel and we can talk what’s better for Israel’s future. Not even the moral issue of the occupation and the genocide in Gaza.
Any Israeli who’s not a messianic Jew is horrified by the settlers and the mainstreaming of #Khaneizm by #Netanyahu - same way sane Americans were dismayed seeing Trump and his neonazis squeezing in.
So let me know what Serge says. I’ll share the protocol publicly and we can start a serious discuss of how ADL and SWU instrumentalise #antisemitism and the #holocaust to protect Israel from criticism and sanctions.
@hesgen Unfortunately, generations of using the word "antisemitism" to mean "disagreeing with policies of the state of Israel" rob this article of meaning.
Please note that this organization is a charity that profits from fears of antisemitism.
The Wiesenthal Center declared Britain's Jeremy Corbyn "Antisemite of the year". He had said nothing antisemitic but apparently some Labour back-benchers had, though they were never identified, nor did anyone tell us what they had said.
1/
@hesgen The Wiesenthal Center decided to give this title to Corbyn, ahead of a man who burst into a synagogue with automatic weapons, screaming antisemitic slogans, killing eleven.
In 2024, when someone is called an antisemite, most of the time it means they are calling for a ceasefire in Gaza.
Unfortunately, by using this term as a weapon against decent human beings opposing genocide, it means other decent humans like myself no longer take the word seriously.
@hesgen What isn't clear is whether it is actually antisemitism or antizionism.
Either way, abusing kinds is NOT good, but the distinction matters, especially given the move to conflate the two.